"What is it about the word Illegal you do not understand"
“What is it about the word Illegal you do not understand”.
“Illegal is Illegal period”.
This argument has been floating around for a long time, and I have often heard it when discussing the subject of illegal immigrants. Usually it is accompanied by statements similar to this:
“What good are any laws if you do not enforce them?”
“Throw open the gate to the jails and prisons let them all out.”
“What next, allow murder, rape”.
The purpose of this post, is to begin a discussion about the validity (or lack of validity) of the above argument as it relates to illegal immigration. I am not attempting to discuss the economic issues related to illegal immigration.
For those who would believe that the above arguments are valid, when discussing illegal immigration, I ask the following questions:
1) Are all laws equal?
2) Is there ever (or has there ever been) a situation where it is o.k. to break the law?
3) Were the Pilgrims illegal aliens? What about other European colonies in the Americas in the 17th and 18th centuries?
4) If you believe in God, how do you think God wants you to treat illegal aliens.
If anyone answers, or indicates an interest, I will make my arguments.
(I actually made a stab at this in another discussion after someone accused me of not understanding what "Illegal" means. However the blog owner wished to return the discussion back to answering a more specific question, as was her right to do so).
“Illegal is Illegal period”.
This argument has been floating around for a long time, and I have often heard it when discussing the subject of illegal immigrants. Usually it is accompanied by statements similar to this:
“What good are any laws if you do not enforce them?”
“Throw open the gate to the jails and prisons let them all out.”
“What next, allow murder, rape”.
The purpose of this post, is to begin a discussion about the validity (or lack of validity) of the above argument as it relates to illegal immigration. I am not attempting to discuss the economic issues related to illegal immigration.
For those who would believe that the above arguments are valid, when discussing illegal immigration, I ask the following questions:
1) Are all laws equal?
2) Is there ever (or has there ever been) a situation where it is o.k. to break the law?
3) Were the Pilgrims illegal aliens? What about other European colonies in the Americas in the 17th and 18th centuries?
4) If you believe in God, how do you think God wants you to treat illegal aliens.
If anyone answers, or indicates an interest, I will make my arguments.
(I actually made a stab at this in another discussion after someone accused me of not understanding what "Illegal" means. However the blog owner wished to return the discussion back to answering a more specific question, as was her right to do so).
posted by u∃∃l!∃ at Saturday, November 18, 2006
6 Comments:
1)Are all laws equal?
Interesting question. Of course, there are all sorts of laws. So, how could we possibly rate them equal or not? A law on placement of handicapped accessories compared to a law against robbery is still a law and both are enforced, with the handicapped laws enforcement possibly falling more into the category of civil law versus criminal law and being enforced more by attorney’s than law enforcement
Perhaps the real question should be are all laws equal in enforcement? To that the answer is a resounding no.
2) Is there ever (or has there ever been) a situation where it is o.k. to break the law?
If a law is manifestly unfair to citizens, as were the laws against Blacks in the 60s and before, civil disobedience helped bring about change. However, when one decides to engage in civil disobedience they must also be prepared to accept the consequences.
Here again the question must be asked, who decides what law is unfair and should be disobeyed? What limits are there on breaking established law in order to effect a change?
3) Were the Pilgrims illegal aliens? What about other European colonies in the Americas in the 17th and 18th centuries?
Since there was no established government when the Pilgrims arrived and it was an open and free land, with the indigenous Indians loosely scattered about, no, they were not illegal aliens.
Since that time, every country has established their own immigration laws to secure their citizenry in jobs, health and security. If enough citizens see the current laws are unfair, there are avenues established to effect change. But, in the meantime, if one chooses to disobey established law they must be ready to accept the consequences.
In the case of the current influx of illegal immigrants, countries to the south of us do not share our health standards and those sneaking across the borders may very well bring with them illness that we have nearly eradicated. We also have now seen that some coming with them are also from countries that wish to bring harm to America. If we allow just any and everybody, as was done prior to the establishment of current immigration laws, we face real threats much greater than simply low paying jobs.
4) If you believe in God, how do you think God wants you to treat illegal aliens.
Expecting immigrants to learn and obey established law isn’t mistreating them. In a sense, their disobeying our laws could be translated as they mistreating us. An interesting scripture that I see tying in with the Leviticus scripture you offered is; Leviticus 25:44 "'Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 25:45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
Of course, we don’t advocate slavery any longer, nor would any sane person feel illegal immigrants are property.
Another comment of interest, Exodus 12:48 -- "If a foreigner resides with you and wants to celebrate the Lord's Passover, every male in his household must be circumcised, and then he may participate; he will become like a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person may eat it."
Although addressing Passover, I also see that foreigners coming into a land should assimilate if they are to partake of what the land offers. First and foremost would be to travel into that land legally, then join in, not set up a separate culture working against the land you are in.
Just some food for thought. Another discussion of this can be found at Sillie Lizzie’s Rock
Lew,
On (1) and (2);
Can I assume then that we are in agreement that the “illegal is illegal” along with the “we might as well not have any laws and let out murderers and rapists” is (are) NOT logical argument(s) related to the immigration issue.
Once we agree on this, we can move on, and argue immigration law on its very own merits, (which I know it has).
To anyone else reading this, if you are not ready to move beyond the “illegal is illegal” or the comparison of not enforcing immigration to not enforcing other very different laws, please speak up now (before the discussion gets way beyond this point).
[I will address the rest of your answers later. One of them requires a little more thought on my part before I respond. You do have me thinking.]
I do expect this to evolve into a discussion on the economic issues, but I want to get certain things out of the way first.
Lew,
Related to Lizzies page, I found it the other day. I am attempting to discuss this with her, using the same argument I used the first time you mentioned Romans 13:1 to me.
But it was an old enough discussion that I think it is only her and I still looking at that discussion.
Since we economicaly need them, what idiot made them illegal in the first place.
If the Mexicans are to come here legally we need the same rights to work and own property in Mexico.
I did some technical work in Mexico and officialy "I was visiting a friend" who paid my air fare and gave me several $100 bills for my trouble. To have been legal would have involved a large amout of papework and probably a few bribes for approval.
Lew,
In response to your response to (4), I am ready to accept that I do not have to follow the scripture in Leviticus.
Being reminded that Leviticus is full of other stuff I do not believe is the absolute word of god, has reminded me, I decided years ago that I could follow the teachings of Christ without accepting that every book in the bible was the absolute word of God.
It was humans who decided what belonged. (I know there is a statement, somewhere in the bible, indicating otherwise, but I remember realizing that this statement belongs to the specific book it is in [revelations?] and was in that book before that book was combined with others to form the Bible).
So I am willing to take Leviticus 19:33-34 out of the argument, and proceed as if I am not obligated to follow it. This does not change some of my feelings related to what is in my conscience, independent of anything I read in the Bible.
I won't have any more time to blog until after Thanksgiving.
But at that time I would like to start discussing some of the economic issues. I will do some reading in the mean time.
Anonymous,
I have attempted to start an economic discussion in my next post (to this blog). Maybe you would like to give some specific data indicating why you believe we "need" the illegal immigrants.
When you use the term "idiot" are you using the ancient Greek definition?
Didn't NAFTA require that Mexico sell land to foreigners, and isn't this one of the things which is contributing to the current poverty in Mexico. The farmers were pushed off their land so foreign investors could use the land for their own selfish use.
I don't even believe in private land ownership.
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